Posts by Cold Steel

32

If Jesus had to choose his earthly organisation NOW, who would win?

by stuckinarut2 in

we all know that the society claims that jesus invisibly chose the bible students (forerunners of jw) in 1919 to be his organization here on earth.. yet, as we know, so much of what they then taught and did was wrong according to current teaching and practice.. the reply witnesses will give is something like "they were the most sincere seekers of truth blah blah...and jesus could see their potential".

so, pretend for a moment that the current organization and the 1919 organization were both in concurrent existence at the time he invisibly came to choose.... which would he choose?

the current or former?.

Cold Steel

Doubting Bro » Are you saying the Catholic Church is Jesus organization? Seriously? I can't think of an organization with a worse history.

Nope. Didn't say that at all. I'm saying that Jesus didn't have much luck with existing religious movements of his day. So he created his own. I also don't believe it lasted. As prophesied, it failed, the apostles were killed, the keys were lost and the church passed from God to the political authorities in Rome. And once lost, the keys could only be restored by Jesus Christ (Acts 3:18-21).

Plus, Jesus didn't put all that organizational structure in place. Paul did. Now, you may believe Paul was acting under Jesus instructions but that's difficult to prove. If Jesus wanted all that structure in place, why didn't he do it?

I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion seeing that Peter was the senior apostle and held the keys of sealing power in Heaven and on Earth. Jesus was the one who established his church. He created the quorum of the Twelve and the Seventy (which also was had under Moses), and when the gospel was opened to the Gentiles, the revelation came not to Paul but to Peter.

There are many questions the Bible doesn't answer and we should be careful not to make assumptions when we hit gaps. The church was Christ's and it was of great importance to the ancients and was said to pre-date even the creation of the earth. It was not created by man, then "chosen" by God, but just the opposite. It was created by God, then chosen by those who sought His will.

Reading the Gospel accounts, Jesus pointed out time and time again how power (religious or otherwise) corrupts and that following an organization was not the way. Didn't he say "I am the way".

This is close to the "birthday" logic of the JWs. Structural organizations can be corrupted so they must all be wrong. But as we've seen, the early church was a structural organization. Moses had a brilliant structural organization in which the priesthood was used to minister to the needs of men. So the church was the link between Man and God as the ancient Christians saw it. But it couldn't be led without revelation, as the current JWs claim, else the blind would lead the blind and both leader and follower would fall into the pit.

11

Tattoos In the Kingdom?

by Cold Steel in

with tattoos becoming ever more popular in today's culture, i couldn't help but wonder what happens when people with ostentatious tattoos seek baptism?

are they admitted?

many don't have the money to have them removed, yet i can't imagine they'd be allowed to do pioneer work.

Cold Steel

With tattoos becoming ever more popular in today's culture, I couldn't help but wonder what happens when people with ostentatious tattoos seek baptism? Are they admitted? Many don't have the money to have them removed, yet I can't imagine they'd be allowed to do Pioneer work. How does the Society handle such matters?

38

Humourous reactions to beards worn at the kingdom Hall

by UnshackleTheChains in

is this the reaction you get when you walk into a kingdom hall sporting your new beard 🙄.

.

Cold Steel

I don't want to hijack this thread, but what happens if someone's investigator happens to sport a beard? What happens then? At some point a serious investigator has to be informed that his neatly-trimmed, stylish beard has to go. But upon whose shoulders does this weighty burden fall? An elder's? The pioneers' who found him going door-to-door?

The person signs up for a FREE Bible study. He shows interest, promise, has a family. Who drops the hammer? And when he brings his family to the local Kingdom Hall, is he love bombed as though he had no beard and, if so, is he given a pass right up to the time he's baptized?

Finally, for you former elders out there, have you ever had to give a bearded investigator the bad news that his prized beard had to go? How did he respond?

32

If Jesus had to choose his earthly organisation NOW, who would win?

by stuckinarut2 in

we all know that the society claims that jesus invisibly chose the bible students (forerunners of jw) in 1919 to be his organization here on earth.. yet, as we know, so much of what they then taught and did was wrong according to current teaching and practice.. the reply witnesses will give is something like "they were the most sincere seekers of truth blah blah...and jesus could see their potential".

so, pretend for a moment that the current organization and the 1919 organization were both in concurrent existence at the time he invisibly came to choose.... which would he choose?

the current or former?.

Cold Steel

Doubting Bro » Assuming Jesus was who his followers say he was, he wouldn't need an organization!

How do you get that? Seems Jesus built his own church with apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, deacons, bishops, elders, seventy and so forth. And he gave Peter the keys of the kingdom, allowing him to seal both in Heaven and on Earth. The JWs amuse me by pretending they have those keys because they can't tell anyone how our in what was they obtained them! Jesus told the Twelve: "...I have chosen you and ordained you." Strangely, no one in the WTBTS is ordained, even members of the Governing Body.

32

If Jesus had to choose his earthly organisation NOW, who would win?

by stuckinarut2 in

we all know that the society claims that jesus invisibly chose the bible students (forerunners of jw) in 1919 to be his organization here on earth.. yet, as we know, so much of what they then taught and did was wrong according to current teaching and practice.. the reply witnesses will give is something like "they were the most sincere seekers of truth blah blah...and jesus could see their potential".

so, pretend for a moment that the current organization and the 1919 organization were both in concurrent existence at the time he invisibly came to choose.... which would he choose?

the current or former?.

Cold Steel

Yep, Island Man, but remember, Jesus had to start his own religion. He couldn't reform the Jews because the Jewish leaders wouldn't accept him. And if he came today as a man, established religions wouldn't accept him, either. Established religion has too many people at the top to ever accept anyone. If a prophet were to announce himself today, what religion would acknowledge him (or her)? Ellen G. White had to start her own religion because no other church would accept her visions and declarations. If a prophet came and identified himself as such to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Western Baptist Convention, Methodists and others, none of them would accept him or her. Why? Because they all have leaders or he would teach things they didn't believe in.

That's why God wouldn't choose an existing religion. Also, this concept of a never ending Hell is hardly "Christian" in its teaching, is it? If YOU don't choose your religion correctly, you end up burning forever, for countless trillions of years. Why? Because YOU chose the wrong one. I've heard many preachers tell congregations they were in danger of hell fire because they only believed in Jesus; they didn't have the right kind of relationship with him. And for that they must suffer forever, because of one mistake...choosing the wrong religion. Christianity 101 states that 1) Jesus is the great judge of mankind; 2) he's just, merciful, kind and loving; 3) he's God in the flesh.

If God would throw you into such a place just for making a simple mistake, He's hardly just, merciful or kind, right? So with all the other churches teaching HELL in such a manner, it makes God choosing one so much more difficult. Most, I think, would be repulsive to Him.

23

Headed to vegas! Anything i should do?

by _Morpheus in

jw
friends

the tittle is self explanitory.... first trip to vegas, anything i should do besides gamble?.

Cold Steel

It's more like what you shouldn't do in Vegas, but yes, eat.

Gamble? Send me your money. I don't know who said it, but whoever said that gambling was a tax on people who are bad at math sure had it right.

My brother lived there. One day while visiting there (my wife was attending a professional conference), he came down from Cedar City and he asked me what I wanted to do. I saw a big storm over a mountain that reminded me of the movie, The Ten Commandments. "Can you get me up there in the middle of that," I asked him. He said he could and off we went. We drove to the mountain and up the mountain. It was sunny and beautiful all the way up, but soon it darkened and then snow began hitting the windshield. Pretty soon snow was hitting us from every side and I could see no sun anywhere. We were sliding around and it was beautiful. We saw another car that was stuck and some people were pushing it, and soon they got it going. So we turned around and I told him I thought we ought to get out of there.

We turned around and he began speeding down the mountain, but on the other side. Within ten minutes, it was bright and sunny again and fifteen minutes we were zipping past sand and cactus. We could see the storm up the mountain, but it was now hot. Way too hot for snow! I'd never seen such rapid changes in weather.

Anyway, we had a hoot. And we kept on driving. When I told my wife that night that we almost got stuck in a blizzard earlier in the day, she thought I was lying. I'd love to do it again.

Oh, make sure you watch the movie Casino before you go.

https://youtube/kGp3PrC1CKI

32

If Jesus had to choose his earthly organisation NOW, who would win?

by stuckinarut2 in

we all know that the society claims that jesus invisibly chose the bible students (forerunners of jw) in 1919 to be his organization here on earth.. yet, as we know, so much of what they then taught and did was wrong according to current teaching and practice.. the reply witnesses will give is something like "they were the most sincere seekers of truth blah blah...and jesus could see their potential".

so, pretend for a moment that the current organization and the 1919 organization were both in concurrent existence at the time he invisibly came to choose.... which would he choose?

the current or former?.

Cold Steel

Yes, well I'm assuming that once Jehovah chose the organization that he would have made some personnel changes. If I'd been Rutherford, I would have built a nice mansion for the resurrected prophets who would soon be coming to the earth. Then, when they didn't show up, I'd kind of move in for lengthy respites -- you know, just to keep the place comfortable and "lived in." Then...er...wait. Never mind.

I'm sure there would have been some changes.

But if I were Jehovah, I think I'd choose another leader. Of course, doing it invisibly has its problems. People don't always do what you want them to when it's invisible. I would have used thunder, lightning, power and great glory, then chosen someone else. I don't know how I would have gotten that last part across if no one could see it, though. Spectacular but invisible. Difficult indeed.

It's difficult to run an organization when the leaders can't see you or hear you or have no idea what you want. You can yell, "NO SHUNNING...love each other like I said in the New Testament," and they do just the opposite. If you start striking them all dead it just makes room for opportunists and new rules.

32

If Jesus had to choose his earthly organisation NOW, who would win?

by stuckinarut2 in

we all know that the society claims that jesus invisibly chose the bible students (forerunners of jw) in 1919 to be his organization here on earth.. yet, as we know, so much of what they then taught and did was wrong according to current teaching and practice.. the reply witnesses will give is something like "they were the most sincere seekers of truth blah blah...and jesus could see their potential".

so, pretend for a moment that the current organization and the 1919 organization were both in concurrent existence at the time he invisibly came to choose.... which would he choose?

the current or former?.

Cold Steel

The concept of man creating a church and having it "chosen" is unique. Anciently, God was the active force and man the passive. The JW concept of man being the active player and God being the passive player is a concept that originated with the early leaders of the Watchtower Society.

But since you give us only two selections and ask us to choose, I think old Jah would go with the earlier organization. As far as I know, it didn't exercise the dictatorial control over its followers and how they were to dress, groom themselves, educate themselves and so forth. And somehow, he'd have to go with them.

Given further latitude, I think he would choose the Eastern Orthodox faith.

10

Research Help?

by vienne in

as at least some of you know, i am coauthor of two history books about zion's watch tower's earliest years.

we are at a dead end with one of the watch tower's earliest evangelists, s. d. rogers.

we do not know his first name or have any biography outside of a scattering of newspaper articles and mentions in zwt.

Cold Steel

Hmmm...only a guess, but most men of that designation "S" in the 1800s was "Samuel" and "D" would have been either Daniel or David. Since it's unlikely to be Daniel (because of the -el ending) in this case, it's most likely Davis, Dickens, Dawson or other family name. If you know his birth place in Michigan and approximate year of birth, he may be in the geological records.

I'd bet my sparkling ruby red bippy that his given name was Samuel.

My sister's a genealogist. If you have any other clues I can have her do some checking.

8

The Proof is all Around Us

by suavojr in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/8imamwcet1c.

Cold Steel

The message is so new, fresh, vibrant. We're in the last days. Armageddon is right around the corner. We need to get the word out, turn our lives over to a man-made religious order that will dictate who we are, what our educational standards will be, how we dress, how we interpret scriptures, what our grooming habits are and who will give us counsel and hold sway over our families.

Yes, JEHOVAH, if this is of you, fill the heavens with your presence! See? Nothing! Obviously he's doing it invisibly! You don't see it because you can't. But not seeing is believing! And if we're to believe the scriptures, Armageddon will be here by 1975, 2023 tops! Okay, 2035 at the latest.... But it will be soon.

Proof!